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Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

topic posted Thu, March 17, 2005 - 8:12 AM by  Unsubscribed
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Here is a description of the Taoist Sets of Nines, the technique for extended thrusting developed 3000 years ago in China:

Forward: 9 Phrases of 9 Strokes = 81 Strokes
- 9 shallow (fairly quick)
The shallow thrusts stimulate the woman's most sensitive tissues and at the same time create a vacuum effect that makes her ache for the deep thrust to come. And because most of the man's thrusts are shallow ones, stimulating only the end of his lingam, the man is able to continue thrusting much longer.

- 1 deep -- 8 shallow
- 2 deep -- 7 shallow
- 3 deep -- 6 shallow
- 4 deep -- 5 shallow
- 5 deep -- 4 shallow
- 6 deep -- 3 shallow
- 7 deep -- 2 shallow
- 8 deep -- 1 shallow

Reverse: 9 Phrases of 9 Strokes = 81 Strokes
- 9 deep
- 1 shallow -- 8 deep
- 2 shallow -- 7 deep
- 3 shallow -- 6 deep
- 4 shallow -- 5 deep
- 5 shallow -- 4 deep
- 6 shallow -- 3 deep
- 7 shallow -- 2 deep
- 8 shallow -- 1 deep

This completes One Set of 162 Strokes.

Repeat 9 Sets = 1458 Strokes
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  • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

    Thu, March 17, 2005 - 11:04 AM
    Thanks, William. I practiced "the nines" several decades ago, but I abandoned the practice. I think many people reading this will find it beneficial.

    I just have two sets of questions for you:

    1) What are you calling this Tantric? It has nothing to do with Tantra. Do you assume that anything that has to do with sex that is not standard missionary position to be Tantric? I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with "the nines" or that they shouldn't have been posted here. I'm just wondering why you labeled this as Tantric? Is there something you have against Taoism that just calling it a Taoist technique offends you?

    2) One of the keys to Tantric sexuality as I understand it is surrender--surrender to the moment, surrender to your partner, surrender to the divine. This sounds like the antithesis of such surrender. How can one be in the moment when they're thinking, "Okay, I just did 5 deep. Now I need to do 4 shallow. Then I need to do 6 deep. Or am I doing the reverse and need to do 5 deep..." And how do you keep track of the number of sets you are doing? Do you have a piece of paper and pencil or pen by the bed so you can make tic marks? Or do you have wires with little circles of wood around them over the bed, sort of like you might see to keep score over a snooker table, so you can use it like an abacus to keep count? When you're partner looks at you counting and asks what you're thinking about, do you go, "Shhhh. That's 3 shallow. Now 7 deep...Now 2 shallow..." That doesn't seem like you are paying any attention whatsoever to the needs, emotions, or energy cycles of your partner.

    In fact, I think this clearly demonstrates one of the differences between Taoist mystical sexuality and Tantric sexuality. Taoist mystical sexuality is based on concepts of control derived from Taoist alchemical experiments. Tantric sexuality as I understand it is based on surrender. Taoist sexual alchemy is based on concepts of a battle between the partners, with the male trying to get as much yin energy from his partner as possible without giving up any yang energy while the female tries to extract the male's limited yang energy without giving up much of her limitless yin energy. Over 20 years ago I abandoned Taoist sexual practices for Tantric sexuality which, as I understand it, is about cooperation and surrender to each other, the moment, and the Divine. But that's just me.

    Indeed, that Taoist set of nines is a very good practice, especially for some younger men (who may be less able to control their excitement as easily as a more mature man) and some women who may require more stimulation to reach higher levels of arousal. However, the more secretive alchemical purpose of "the nines" is to encourage orgasm in the female so her yin energy can be absorbed while preventing ejaculation in the male so his yang energy can be retained. Note that she is free to respond as she will while he is busy counting.

    On an allied topic, I personally do not think that the Kama Sutra is all that valuable to Tantrics except as a listing of positions (if the male is very strong and his partner weighs about 80 pounds and is very limber!); and Douglas and Slinger's Sexual Secrets book is far better, IMO, for that. Further, the Kama Sutra is also very much about control rather than surrender. In reading the Kama Sutra I can imagine a situation where a woman is deeply aroused, heavily lubricating and begging her partner to enter her, and he replies, "Not yet. You're not sticking out your tongue and panting and you haven't made little bites that look like half-moons around my chest...well, that one looks more like a quarter-moon, not a half-moon, so it doesn't count."

    Okay, I'm passionate in my support of Tantra and although I respect other spiritualized sexual traditions, I have to admit that I have either abandoned many of their concepts or have absorbed them into my practices. But I think it is also of value to say X it Tantra and Y is not. If we don't do that, then Tantra becomes everything and nothing, merely a catch-word to sell products (Use our Tantra brand toilet cleaner! A clean toilet makes sex better!) or a 21st-century come-on to replace "Hey, baby, what's your sign?" Taoist sexual practices, Western Sex Magick, Quodoshka, and many other systems are all types of spiritual sexuality and all have their value. But they're not Tantra any more than a Chevy is a Ford.

    Namaste.
    • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

      Thu, March 17, 2005 - 2:38 PM
      In the spirit of spiritual Jeet Kune Do and Bruce Lee's statement "Avoid what is useful, reject what is not," I personally choose to take from whatever repertoire of psychospiritual technologies I want, and reject labels as linguistic paperweights.

      Historically, Tantric Siddha's and Taoist Sages borrowed and shared technologies with each other exstensively. The academic lines we associate with Indian Tantric and Chinese Taoist Alchemy would have seemed very strange to yogic and sexual adepts of ancient China and India, living and crossing over one another's boundaries as much as they did.

      Whatever personal style a person chooses is fine.

      I personally say throw all the tech on the table, drop all the labels, and experiment. Its that kind of intense pragmatism and reaction to Bhramanic and Confucian authority and scholasticism these technologies had to struggle with the first place.

      The fact that this takes place within a "Tantric Post" is actually exiciting to me. There should be more dialogue about the interface of Taoist and Tantric technologies as they stem from a common root.
      • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

        Thu, March 17, 2005 - 10:38 PM
        Thanks for your post, mark.

        Would you please give some sources that show "Tantric Siddha's and Taoist Sages borrowed and shared technologies with each other exstensively." Thanks.

        And I agree that we should use what works. But I don't think we should identify something when it is clearly not that at all. For example, I don't think you'd like to turn over all of your income to me if I claimed to be you! :-)
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

          Fri, March 18, 2005 - 2:31 PM
          A simple Google turned up

          N.N. Bhattacharyya
          History of the Tantric Religion : An Historical, Ritualistic and Philosophical Study
          Manohar Publishers & Distributors , New Delhi, 1999 {New Book} , pp. 483, Biblio., Index, Size 23cm

          <www.loibazaar.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc

          I have not read it, but it would be a place to start.
          • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

            Fri, March 18, 2005 - 2:46 PM
            Thank you for that listing. However, do you have something which shows that "Tantric Siddha's and Taoist Sages borrowed and shared technologies with each other exstensively" that you have read?

            Thanks, and Namaste!
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

              Fri, March 18, 2005 - 5:26 PM
              No. I have no references that I've read that discuss the influences Tantrism and Taoism had on each other. But I've traveled up the Indus to Gilgit where it turns and heads to Kashmir. Instead of going on to Kashmir, I went on to Hunza, Taxkorgan, and Kashgar. This is one of the major routes through which Buddhism was brought to China. Outside Kashgar and along the headwaters of the Yellow River, I visited the caves used by the first Buddhists to visit China. The drawings are still on the walls.

              I'm sure that if I had stayed on the Indus, then cut around the south side of K2 and dropped down to Kashgar I would have seen similar things.

              Given what I did see, it is very natural to me that the great movements and the local, indigenous, now extinct practices commingled, especially if one considers the way trade has been done in the area for the last 10,000 years. Some of the ancient camel routes are still used as foot trails; they make for a fun hike. Surely, with 10,000 years of economic and sexual intercourse, there was also intercourse about spiritual practices.

              As I read through the histories of the spiritual movements in both the East and the West, I've come to believe that each guru puts his spin on what sells best in his time and place. He is marketing. Sometimes the gurus add value, sometimes not. Nothing is more correct because a guru said it or because it was said a long time ago or because it was developed in a certain tradition.

              What matter most to me is the efficaciousness for me and my partner in the moment. What's present in me and my partner, alive in me and my partner, right then? What do I do to add kundalini energy to us right now? What do I do to expand my or my partner's capacity for kundalini energy in this moment, to help me and my partner move to a higher altered state of consciousness?

              For me, it matters not whether some guru 1,500 years ago developed the technique or whether my partner invented 30 seconds ago.

              I'm very confident that, with enough research, one could trace the influences Tantrism and Taoism had on each other. Maybe it has been done in the book I cited.

              Right now, I'd rather go practice empathetic and compassionate Nines.
    • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

      Thu, March 17, 2005 - 6:02 PM
      Dear Shambalanath,

      Clearly you are ridiculing these techniques as not being Tantric,,. and you state that:

      "One of the keys to Tantric sexuality as I understand it is surrender--surrender to the moment, surrender to your partner, surrender to the divine. This sounds like the antithesis of such surrender. How can one be in the moment when they're thinking, "Okay, I just did 5 deep. Now I need to do 4 shallow. Then I need to do 6 deep. Or am I doing the reverse and need to do 5 deep..."

      Is it not possible to "surrender to the moment, surrender to your partner, surrender to the divine" while doing this technique? OK clearly it wasn't for you, but for others perhaps it is.

      Are you implying that there are no Tantric techniques? If not, then how are those techniques superior to this one..

      There are many who feel like Tantric breathing and visualizations are also barriers to intimacy because there is an effort. And frankly this "surrender to the moment, surrender to your partner, surrender to the divine" says nothing,, because if I just "go with it" without the aid of techniques I am just going to Shoot my wad, carried away by passion.

      Tantric practices are also techniques - I have seen you in other tribes define some techniques like pressing the perineum, etc.. (or maybe that is not Tantric) In your attempts to define what real tantra is you box yourself into a little corner,, and reject / ridicule other techniques that are also valuable and very similar to those that lead to the Surrender to the divine, that you speak of.

      there are no distinctions anyway - only opinions about our limited grasp and scope of understanding..

      BTW Shambalanath - I honor your knowledge and effort,, thank for sharing that.
      • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

        Thu, March 17, 2005 - 11:18 PM
        No, Sam, I am not ridiculing them at all. that is your interpretation. Why would I ridicule things that I stated were useful and interesting and that I had used myself?

        What I am saying is that they're not Tantric. That's all.

        Are there Tantric techniques? Absolutely. But unlike what your post implies, I don't focus on superior inferior. Rather, they are different.

        If you are just going to "go with it" and as a result "shoot your wad," I would respectfully suggest that you are not "going with it." You are not surrendering. You are focusing on yourself and focusing on what is to come (pardon the pun) rather than on the moment.

        You said that doing the Nines wasn't for me. However, you seem to have missed what I posted. I did use the techniques for a long time before I abandoned it. I even wrote that it is good for some people. That still doesn't make it Tantric.

        Yep. I have discussed pressing on the perineum as a way of LEARNING to delay ejaculation in the male in response to a question on that specific subject. I also clearly identified that as a technique based on the meridians and acupressure points of Chinese medicine (specifically, the point known as circulation-sex 1), not anything Tantric.

        I don't know if I mentioned it in those posts, but with practice, a person using that point can develop a sensation of what it feels like and achieve the same results mentally rather than physically. As a result, the person can focus on energy work, being in the moment, surrender to the partner etc. In the discussion of the Nines, there is nothing I've ever seen which describes abandoning the physical technique.

        You're absolutely correct about certain practices such as breathing and visualizations being barriers to intimacy. The goal, as I've been trained, is to move beyond those techniques so they become part of who you are rather than something you do. When the breathing and visualizations become part of your very being, something magical truly happens.

        Perhaps a better way to understand this is to compare it to playing an instrument. Musicians traditionally practice a piece enough to they no longer have to focus on the physical motions. This is called "finger memory." Then, rather than focus on the notes that are being played or the positions of the hands, fingers, arms, body, etc., the musician can let his or her emotions come out in the music.

        In another discussion on what "real Tantra" is, I tried to present the view that it was much broader than many people believe. It has many branches and beliefs. But merely because I would contend that Tantra includes far more than many others accept, does not mean that I simply accept everything as being Tantric.

        For example, there is a book I have on Tantra from the Pleiades. It has some good exercises in it. But is it Tantra? No. I have another book on what is supposedly Ancient Egyptian Tantra. It is not Tantric, either. Another book I have claims the ancient Tantrics had sex for exactly 14.5 minutes and Tantric sexuality involved having sex while rolling around in mud. I don't think that's Tantra, either.

        In Traditional Tantra there are five things (known as "kleshas") which prevent spiritual advancement. One of these is "ignorance." One aspect of discovering truth and overcoming ignorance is discernment. As another poster suggested we should each use what works for us. I agree completely. But merely because something is not typical "vanilla" Western sexual practice does not make it Tantra. For example, there is a book and web site which insists that it would be much better for the sexual enjoyment of a woman if a couple uses the "missionary position," but then the man moves up about six inches so that each thrust has more direct friction against the clitoris. I've tried it and, in fact, the position can be very powerful. But that doesn't make it Tantric sexuality.

        What I have done is identify the differences between Tantric sexuality and Taoist Alchemical sexual practices. I've stated that I prefer Tantra and presented why. If people want to choose Taoist practices, Tantra, Quodoshka, Western sex magick, or wam-bam-thank-u-mam that's up to them. Pointing out the differences gives people choice and options.

        I honor each person's path, whether I agree with it or not. The Nines can be very helpful to some people. But it's still not Tantra.

        Namaste!
        • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

          Fri, March 18, 2005 - 10:39 AM
          Dear shambalanath,

          sorry, brother - but this sounds like ridicule.. (as in making something seem ridiculous)

          "How can one be in the moment when they're thinking, "Okay, I just did 5 deep. Now I need to do 4 shallow. Then I need to do 6 deep. Or am I doing the reverse and need to do 5 deep..." And how do you keep track of the number of sets you are doing? Do you have a piece of paper and pencil or pen by the bed so you can make tic marks? Or do you have wires with little circles of wood around them over the bed, sort of like you might see to keep score over a snooker table, so you can use it like an abacus to keep count? When you're partner looks at you counting and asks what you're thinking about, do you go, "Shhhh. That's 3 shallow. Now 7 deep...Now 2 shallow..." That doesn't seem like you are paying any attention whatsoever to the needs, emotions, or energy cycles of your partner. "

          if you say that is not how you intended it,, well OK, fair enough -

          you said:
          "I honor each person's path, whether I agree with it or not. "

          That does not sound very honoring at all, at least not to me.

          But thanks for taking the time to share your beliefs
          • Unsu...
             

            Think Time Out

            Fri, March 18, 2005 - 1:24 PM
            This is not for the early phases of arousal and stimulation. Nor is it for climbing the ladder. I've found it takes at least 45 minutes to get fully up on the plateau to enjoy this. When one is on the plateau, for me at least, talk does not happen.

            The timing is complicated. I've found that I can think of it in musical terms. I'm in 4/8 time with emphasis on the second beat. And, for every 4th measure, I shift to 4/5 and keep the emphasis on the second beat.

            We are going for trance induction. So constant repetitive motion couple with a breathing pattern helps.

            If I think, I'm screwed -- so to speak. It needs to be in you parasympathetic nervous system. If Brubeck can do it in Time Out, I can do it. Then I think about how many hours Brubeck practiced. Hmmm... This could be fun.

            Is it honoring? Well, ask my partner. If she initiates it and goes through multiple extended and expanded orgasmic cycles and enjoys it and thanks me afterward, I'm not going to stop her and demand that we have a discussion about her goddess beauty.

            Actually, I'm not very good at it. I bought a metronome for practice but it was not well received by my partner.
          • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

            Fri, March 18, 2005 - 2:48 PM
            I showed why I don't follow a Taoist alchemical path any more and why it is funny to claim that such a path it Tantric. If you took that as simply ridiculing the system then I deeply apologize for my poor presentation. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

            Namaste!
  • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

    Thu, March 17, 2005 - 5:26 PM
    hmmmm,

    As a Taoist who mostly listens here in this Tantra tribe,

    and in case you didn't know there is a tribe called Taoist Sex Practices

    I'd be curious to know what your personal experience has been with this technique.

    Does/did your partner(s) like this? What does/did she/they say about it?

    Do you like it? Does it heighten your experience? Does it help you control ejaculation? Have you tried this? Once? 10 times? 100 times? 1000 times? (what's your data set / sample size)

    I tried this less than 10 times in 1988.
    • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

      Thu, March 17, 2005 - 6:52 PM
      My question is what were the women's reactions?
      And you didn't mention your reaction. Since you stopped in 1988 then I'm assuming it wasn't so great for you.

      hmmm George?


      Thanks William great post!
      • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

        Thu, March 17, 2005 - 6:58 PM
        Dear 108 Luna,
        I too have tried this "Tantric Thrusting" - and let me tell you,, the "women's reactions" were all positive. The ladies love it!

        OK Dear?

        BTW - What's your sign?
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

          Fri, March 18, 2005 - 12:34 PM
          Namaste to all,
          Luna, I'm with you in wondering about women's reactions. I am not sure I would like something so formulaic, but that's just me. Perhaps it takes being in a certain mood of dedication to the practice, or adventure, experimentation...

          Sam, when you have engaged in this, how did you approach it? Did you talk about it first so the woman(women?) was ready for something a little out of the ordinary?

          And Wblskr, wonderful information! Am learning lots from everyone who has contributed to this thread.
          • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

            Fri, March 18, 2005 - 12:54 PM
            Dea Amy,
            I was sort of joking a little bit with Luna - I do not have extensive experience with this technique.. I am a bit of a jokester sometimes

            I am very used to counting breath with mantras,, so i generally do mantra work with breath when looking to achieve this sort of control - and to dissipate the intial excitement, rather than counting thrusts,, I am not generally a big Thruster anyway - 162 thrusts per cycle and 9 cycles,, holy moly - - that's a lot of thrusting - How many thrusts can one woman endure!

            Hovering near the precipice is another thing and maybe that counts as thrusts,.. I feel the urge to make jokes,, so i will stop now - -
            :-)
      • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

        Tue, March 22, 2005 - 4:04 PM
        I have found that women are generally unimpressed / unaroused by mechanistic, formulaic activity like this, as is mentioned further down the thread, its the quality of attention far more than what the technique is.

        I also found it was not much of an assistance in controlling ejaculatory response.

        This is the kind of technique that takes your attention away from your partner
  • Unsu...
     

    l’Académie Tantra? Non. Nines, Yes.

    Fri, March 18, 2005 - 10:10 AM
    Caveat emptor. I am sure all that follows is a little incorrect everywhere. I'd appreciate clarifications, corrections, and additions.

    For me, there is to single Tantric practice. There are a set of very diverse religions and practices that all seem to use the word Tantra. It seems there is more diversity than in Christianity: conservatives, liberals, fundamentalists, cults, ...

    As I understand it, Tantra actually means practice as opposed to Sutra that means dogma or theory or scripture. Various tantras were developed and used to change one's life.

    The earliest Tantra I've found is Kashmir Shaivism as documented by Lilian Silburn and practiced in the tradition of Lakshmanjoo in the Kashmir Shaivism Fellowship as documented by Hughes. I have personally found Silburn's book the most enlightening. As is the case with most Tantras, it is a complete lifestyle. With regard to sex, the emphasis seems to be on an internally-focused meditation ritual involving five steps that move one and their partner through stimulation, arousal, and a prolonged multi-orgasmic experience where one is in an altered state of consciousness.

    As I understand it, Kashmir Shaivism spread through northern Nepal and Tibet. What we see today, in Nepal, are many, many sects and the basis of what we, here in the West, referred to as Red, White, Black, ... During this migration, Tantra seemed to mix with both local indigenous customs and vedic sects incorporating various esoteric customs. From what I've been able to find, each valley and guru morphed the rituals and focus.

    While the Tibetans evolved Tantra into their set of customs, the emphasis seems to be very different from the Nepalese evolution. As I read it, the Tibetan emphasis is on Tantric practice as a meditative practice. I've only read Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Gendum Chopel. There is a strong use of guided visualization.

    As the movement through Nepal spread down through India, Tantric practice seems to have fused with various vedic sects. The most popular of these seems to be the Aghori as written about by Svoboda. Here we see the fusion with vedic traditions and, while different from the Naths, a heavy emphasis on ritual and esoteric practices.

    Why, you might ask, go through all this. Well, it ties back the the association of surrender with Tantric practice. For me, this is like associating transubstantiation with Christianity. While surrender is a popular concept in Neo-Tantra as practiced in the United States, I do not find it in the description of the ancient practices. The more non-dualist and non-attachment the sect, the more there is an emphasis on self-realization and the less there is an emphasis on surrender.

    In fact, in Kashmir Shaivism and Tibetan Tantra sex seems to be a booster for the meditative practice -- the practice is fundamentally a meditative practice used to achieve altered states of consciousness. Sex, often in the form of Yab Yum, is the movement component for achieving a trance. There are also vocal components, Holotropic-like breathing components, and guided visualization components.

    With respect to Nines, I've not been able to find any references that specific in the more anthropological-oriented literature.

    All this is background for a comment on Shambhalanth's statement "But I think it is also of value to say X it[sic] Tantra and Y is not."

    I believe that it is impossible to ascribe any believe or practice to Tantra. If one digs a little, one can find almost any believe or practice one wants in some Tantric sect somewhere.

    Personally, I've found the Nines practice, and other similar thrusting practices, when used in conjunction during the fourth state of the Kashmir Shaivism caryakrama meditation practice to be very powerful, especially if done by both you and your partner at the same time.

    I guess, in the end, I cannot understand the idea that Tantra is something. For me, the very idea seems dualist and Platonic. There are thousands of ancient tantras. And there must be thousands of different practices all claiming roots in a Tantric tradition.

    I cannot understand how Tantra can be a thing. But, then I cannot understand how Christianity could be a thing. There are thousands of small religious sects that claim their roots in Christianity. They are very, very different. To say that baptism by submersion is Christian is, for me, a nonsense statement. There are religious sects that practice baptism by submersion and claim Christianity as their foundation; that's a very different statement. I cannot get my head around the idea that a single set of practices by a single sect can claim subsume all the sects.

    But then, I cannot understand the difference between good and bad. Maybe I've been reading too much Suzuki, Popper, and Rosenberg.

    Anyway, Nines is sure fun while in an altered state of consciousness.

    Namasté, Wabi Seeker, www.geocities.com/wabiskr/


    URL's and bookmarks for all of the above and a lot more can be found at

    <www.linkagogo.com/go/Member...kr/Public>


    Kashmir Shaivism

    <www.kashmirshaivism.org/>
    <www.amazon.com/exec/obido...896-4852136

    Naths

    <www.mahendranath.org/>
    <www.cix.co.uk/~mandrake/naths.htm>

    Tibetan
    <www.amazon.com/exec/obido...896-4852136
    <www.amazon.com/exec/obido...896-4852136

    Aghori
    <www.drsvoboda.com/>

    Kundalini: energy of the depths by Lilian Silburn, p 157.

    "The sexual practice mentioned here is not a lewd activity, a craving for enjoyment; it does not aim at pleasure or procreation, but appears as a yoga, a discipline, a sacred act having for its goal the realization of the essence of the self, the identification with Siva; as such it is essentially ascribable to heroic behavior... the practices to which our text allude are based on the awakening of Kundalini and on her ascension."
    • Re: l’Académie Tantra? Non. Nines, Yes.

      Fri, March 18, 2005 - 3:18 PM
      Thank you for your post, WabiSkr! It was wonderfully informative. My own research indicates that Tantra (or what I refer to as Proto-Tantra) began in Kasmir long before it was known by that name. There was a culture there, the Haarapan culture, which according to one researcher had a greater population in one city than in all of Upper and Lower Egypt. The culture surrended the river Saraswati, and when the river dried up, the people left, going in all direction. Their spiritual system is the basis from which Tantra evolved. For people interested in more information on the Haarapan culture, I suggest the book In Search of the Cradle of Civilization by Frawley, Feuerstein and Kak.

      You are certainly correct that there are many traditions which can be called Tantric. There are many differences between them, their beliefs, and their practices. For example, Tantric Buddhism (which has many divisions itself) has many diferences with Tantra as found in southern India.

      Concerning surrender, I would respectfully suggest that you can find this belief and practice in several Traditional Tantric paths, perhaps most importantly those of Tantra Kriya Yoga in the Babaji tradition and also that of the followers of Sri Vidya. Sources for this include the videos of the Kriya Jyoti Tantra Society (with the same name as the book by the people who founded the society, The Jewel in the Lotus), the videos by Pandit Rajmani 
      Tigunait, Ph.D., of the Himalayan Institute on Sri Vidya. Neither of these systems are New Age, although some Neo-Tantrics have adopted some of the Kriya Jyoti Tantra Society concepts and some enjoy looking at the Sri Yantra.

      Again, thanks for your post.

      In answer to the people who wondered what women thought of the Nines--20+ years ago I used to teach it. And even though many people immediately found it "too mechanical" it was part of the curriculum I was teaching.

      In the three or four years that I taught it, all but two or three male students reported that their partners briefly found it interesting, but very quickly started asking "what are you doing?" I made no requirement that students stick with the practice for any length of time, only that they try it. All of the males reverted to other practices.

      I think this may have been due to the fact that most of the men were in their late 20s-50s. I think if some of the men had been younger they would have stayed with the practice because it absolutely does help a man to avoid ejaculation.

      Before teaching it I had worked with it with four or five partners. Ah, I was so much more sure of myself back then! I think my partners tolerated it very nicely, but because the pattern helps prevent ejaculation but also does not supply steady clitoral or g-spot stimulation, my partners found it nice but unfulfilling. I think they put up with it primarily because I was a teacher and they figured I knew more. As a result, we just continued until they got sore and asked me to stop. Admittedly, that was a very small sample, and I'm sure that there are some women who would go wild for it. But in all of the partners I practiced it with, and in all the reports of my students, none found it to be of any great erotic efficacy.
  • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

    Fri, March 18, 2005 - 4:34 PM
    Regarding thrusting techniques in conscious sexual loving, the brain generally picks up more information and the body receives more pleasure whenever a yin stroke is followed by a yang stroke or vice verse. So, when a man follows a few shallow thrusts with a deep thrust, I find it HOT. Really stimulating.

    What's of paramount importance, however, is not the pattern of thrusts, but the quality of a man's presence with me and connection to the energy. Obviously, if he is occupied with numbers or mantras, his mind is busy and he's not fully present.

    As a former musicologist, when considering what makes for a satisfying classical music composition (a subjective measure), there were usually three general components present: Contrast, Variation, and Repetition. Any single one would be boring, two would be okay, but a combination of all three felt the most aesthetically pleasing.

    At least from my experience, this principle works for thrusting in lovemaking too. Variety is key. My guidance to lovers is to practice a variety of different levels of speed and depth of thrusting (at least 3) and a variety of angles of entry and exit.

    We are all such creatures of habit. It can't hurt to think about ways to bring a little more variety into lovemaking.
    • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

      Tue, March 22, 2005 - 4:07 PM
      Shakti Jan
      When i was speaking about mantras - they are not repetitious distracting mantras, rather they increase awareness.. like Om Namah sivaya for instance for Lord Siva - - to whom Tantra loveplay is even relevant - -

      The mind is busier without mantras generally - A mantra brings the business of the mind to one point - that point being the sacred vibration of the mantra - from that one pointedness all is possible.

      everything has its origin as a sacred vibration. That is why every religious book says that in the beginning there was the word, or something of that nature. Amen, OM, Shalom

      Sound resonates through ether (space) and reorients consciousness
      which orients thought (air)
      then active emotions (fire)
      then passive emotions/senses (water)
      then Body (Earth)

      These are the vibrations of our Chakras, from which our thoughts and samsaras arise, based on our karma. They come from the planets, which are the universal Chakras. The arrangement of planet's in a birth chart show each individual's vibration and how they are in harmony or discord with another or their environment. That is why all occult practices ultimately have their origin in Astrology. All Vedic practices and deities, etc. ultimately refer to planetary energies..

      What else is there but the universe??
    • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

      Tue, March 22, 2005 - 5:29 PM
      I definitely agree, Shakti Jan!

      I think making a comparison to music is a great metaphor. And indeed, even atonal music works with contrast, variation, and repetition. Without it you have sound, not music.

      I would just like to add two additional concepts to the music metaphor. It has been said that more important than the notes you play is the silence between the notes. I think this is very valid in the metaphor. Reaching that silent place within so you can be fully present is, I believe, vitally important. It has been my experience that when reaching that point the notes become far more organic and flow from you and you concentrate on the music as a whole, not the individual notes.

      Second, a vital part of music is tension and release. This is exemplified in what is called a cadential phrase ending where the ear (and heart, spirit, and soul) literally yearn for a resolution to the tension that has built up.

      The "trick" (for lack of a better word) in Tantric sexuality is for the resolution not to take you to an end (that "ahhhh" when the piece ends), but resolves to the level where you're at so that the next period of increasing tension (and yes, tension is not the right word as we're trying to get beyond tension--perhaps "build up" would be better) actually takes you to a higher level. Each build up/resolution ands up taking you higher and higher.

      I, too, studied music at the university. So does this analogy make sense to you, Jan? I would be interesting in getting your input.

      Namaste.
      • Re: Tantric Thrusting: The Taoist Sets of Nines

        Tue, March 22, 2005 - 5:46 PM
        That is why "Tristan un Isolde" was such a revolutionary piece of music,, no tonal center or resolution until the last chord -

        3 hours of buildup and yearning.. as classical music evolved from the baroque (with a mandantory plagal cadence leading to a perfect cadence every so and so measures) into the romantic era (where the rules started to be broken) up until the modern and post modern era (where there are no rules) this concept of tension and release has been re worked,, good points, all

        Another facet of this though beyong the notes is the dynamic,, a compostion must be built in a hamonious linear and vertical manner.. the cyles of buildup should work together as harmonic support strengthen toward higher resolution - the vertical and horozontal in harmony.. I find it fascinating how each great composer got better at this,, Particularly IMO is Tchaikovsky,, his first few symphony showed his genius but the craftsman was not yet in synch with the artist. By the time of his 6th and last Symphony, the horizontal and vertyical were always in support.. as melodies progressed thier harmonic underpinnings strengthened to support their ascension whereas earlier a crescendo would lack this foundation..

        Personally- - i love Debussy for the post mdern version of this - especially "Predule a L'apres Midi d'une Faune" - the first (or 2nd if you consider Tristan und Isolde as 1st )